Curse

Daesu · Jan 25, 2011, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Well it's true that I never die, but everything else seems to die quite easily, and still pretty quickly

.

Also, I don't know what damage build would be best on a hero. Smiting? Smiting usually has only one real damage skill, RoJ, which heroes aren't very good at casting and it causes scatter in HM.

Not really. I have been using RoJ in HM and with minions, enemies generally dont scatter that much before they are dead. As far as damage is concerned, I would rather take a smiter over your paragon hero, who is susceptible to blocking/blind/weakness/line-of-sight.

The other advantage of a smiting monk is that you can bring smiter's boon for heals and damage at the same time, reducing your dependency on pure heals.

Quote:

The Resto could use something like Icy Veins. Xinrae probably isn't needed with the prot ele and Shelter.

Icy Veins is meh. Bringing an ER and Shelter is an overkill on defense especially when you have 2 spirit rits and a MM. Shelter also doesn't synergize well with minion bombing.

Dzjudz · Jan 25, 2011, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Haven't had any good experiences with SoGM at all. Heroes don't know to cast spirits first and SoGM after they are up. And if you go full spirit hero they are missing that crucial skill, Summon Spirits. I'd rather go offensive ST, probably with Pain, Shadowsong and Dissonance, with myself then taking Anguish instead of Armor of Unfeeling. I'd never take more than 3 spirits on an ST rit, they don't know how to deal with more spirits than ST can recharge.
Anyway, while I love Shelter (pre-prot spirit the whole team!), I do see that Displacement is out of place in this team. I will replace it with Anguish, to take more advantage of both Painful Bond and Anthem of Envy.

The curser is the debuffer of the team. Enchant removal, weakness, Shadow of Fear. These are pretty much necessary in HM areas.

As for unconditional damage, an SF ele in HM, especially a hero that lacks EBSoH etc, isn't very good. Maybe and Esurge mesmer would be adequate, but I'd prioritise a smite hero over it.

I've used RoJ in HM a lot as well. The main problem I have with it: heroes usually cast it as their first skill. This means they will usually cast it on frontliner enemies who are still moving in on your party and thus immediately moving out of the aoe while it also misses the ranged enemies who stay back. The 20 sec recharge is killer.
I still take RoJ heroes in undead areas though.

I think that the para with Anthem of Envy, Stand Your Ground and Fall Back alone contributes more damage and support to the party than a smite monk to be honest.

I don't want it to seem that I dismiss your ideas too readily, I appreciate all the thoughts and input.

I will implement the following:
- ST rit: switch Displacement for Anguish
- Resto necro: switch Xinrae for Icy Veins
- AotL necro: switch secondary to rit for ancestor's / splinter

Atro · Jan 25, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

I'm thinking something along the lines of a tweaked discord way to fit a SoS, Panic mes, and possibly a smiter or healer.

Oh, and does anyone know roughly the date this update is gonna be release or is that information even release yet :P.

Thanks.

Daesu · Jan 25, 2011, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

I've used RoJ in HM a lot as well. The main problem I have with it: heroes usually cast it as their first skill. This means they will usually cast it on frontliner enemies who are still moving in on your party and thus immediately moving out of the aoe while it also misses the ranged enemies who stay back. The 20 sec recharge is killer.
I still take RoJ heroes in undead areas though.

It may depend on how you flag your heroes and your playing style. For me, I usually let my melee minions move forward to enage the frontliner enemies, so they would stop moving to fight minions, instead of having them chase my casters around.

Quote:

I think that the para with Anthem of Envy, Stand Your Ground and Fall Back alone contributes more damage and support to the party than a smite monk to be honest.

Maybe Anthem of Envy in a dual spirit spamming rits situation, SYG and FB are defensive skills and we know that you already have more than enough defenses.

By the way, Anthem of Envy can be taken by a secondary paragon too. My Rt/P SoS hero brings it on her bar and wields a spear + focus, so you dont need a spear chunking paragon, although a paragon would probably gain adrenaline faster due to IAS like aggressive refrain, but my Rt/P makes up for it through level 14 SoS, Bloodsong, and Splinter Weapon.

NerfHerder · Jan 25, 2011, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

The curser is the debuffer of the team. Enchant removal, weakness, Shadow of Fear. These are pretty much necessary in HM areas.

As for unconditional damage, an SF ele in HM, especially a hero that lacks EBSoH etc, isn't very good. Maybe and Esurge mesmer would be adequate, but I'd prioritise a smite hero over it.

SF Curses

ESurge Curses

It still might not be up your ally. But, I want to show that you can still take some of those skills and have more caster damage. I use the SF hero myself. Most of the damage from SF is done by burning in HM(roughly 100 dmg at full duration). Along with whatever spike damage you get inbetween while burning.

And if you want more Disenchantment, thats where your ST/SoGM with Disenchantment(removal and 40 damage with painful bond every 2 seconds) comes in handy

Dzjudz · Jan 25, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Yeah I made a 7-way SF build last year (5 hero SF eles with Fire Attunement, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Glowing Gaze, Searing Flames and 4 optionals for para/necro/rit/monk skills and a para with They're on Fire etc, and myself as an SF ele with EBSoH etc), but the only place it's really good for is Istan with all the plants.

The ESurge curser looks fine though. I'll try it. I'd have to change another hero to secondary para though, fall back chaining is just too good to miss.

Disenchantment's problem is targeting of course and in general not worth taking over Shelter.

Stand Your Ground is a must have in an all-caster team. Fall Back isn't so much defense as it is an awesome speed boost during vanquishes and missions, especially if you have 2 copies.

The 'more than enough defenses' part rings less and less true for HM areas, especially the harder ones:
- ER Prot
- Resto without elite
- Shelter and Stand Your Ground

Less would be absolutely too little.

Finally, the big problem, even with 7 heroes, will always be bar compression. We can never take all the builds we want, so in the end you have to make personal choices based on your own preferences.

Edit: nice, Anguish also doubles Anthem of Envy's damage on hexed foes

.

Xenomortis · Jan 25, 2011, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

SF Curses

ESurge Curses

Searing Flames just doesn't do anything. It's also a fairly large energy burden.
The ESurge guy would do a bit more, but Panic is more useful. Either way, the Curses stuff is a waste and you want Mistrust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Disenchantment's problem is targeting of course and in general not worth taking over Shelter.

It does damage and even more damage with SoGM and Painful Bond. It removes prots.
Shelter does neither.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Stand Your Ground is a must have in an all-caster team. Fall Back isn't so much defense as it is an awesome speed boost during vanquishes and missions, especially if you have 2 copies.

No it isn't. SYG doesn't do all that much. Fall Back is ok, but not really worth a paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

The 'more than enough defenses' part rings less and less true for HM areas, especially the harder ones:
- ER Prot
- Resto without elite
- Shelter and Stand Your Ground

That's a lot of redundancy. You also missed Panic in your list.
Yesterday I H/Hed two of the dungeons in Slaver's Exile on my Assassin in Hard Mode (Forgewight and Thommis(+Rand)) and I ran less pure defense than you. I had Save Yourselves, a Panic hero, an ER Hero and Mhenlo. My SoS Rit also has MBAS.
If you were to take that setup or H/H equivalent and fail, the only reason would be because you lacked the damage to take them down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Finally, the big problem, even with 7 heroes, will always be bar compression. We can never take all the builds we want, so in the end you have to make personal choices based on your own preferences.

Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to run crap. It's worth knowing what you can cut and why.

I Perma Mobs · Jan 25, 2011, 07:41 PM // 19:41

^agreed with xenomortis. FB is fun and stuff, but its not a necessity and will hardly really improve your effectiveness. Especially because you need to spec at least 7 on it to be hardly effective. And SYG, I have personally never liked it. SY! is a better choice for 5/10 professions. And for the other 5 caster professions, you can take standard of courage, but even then it shouldn't be needed.
And what xeno says about not having to run crap is the obvious truth. I'd rather have an ele hero not running an elite than having him on SF (personally), because SF is a ridiculous waste of energy and the armor damage is just weak, and if its against destroyers then its a pure waste of 15 energy.
But yeaah, basically im just re-winding what xeno said. Listen to that guy :P

NerfHerder · Jan 25, 2011, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Searing Flames just doesn't do anything. It's also a fairly large energy burden.
The ESurge guy would do a bit more, but Panic is more useful. Either way, the Curses stuff is a waste and you want Mistrust.

I gotta pull the math card on this one. Say the ESurge has 12 in fast casting and 15 in domination, dealing 90 damage every 10 seconds.

Now take a level 26 Ranger. SF only does 35 damage with the burning condition. That doesnt sound like much does it? Now say the Ele only casts SF twice in 10 seconds and the burning lasts 7 seconds. -7 degen for 7 seconds = 98 health loss from the burning. Plus 35 from the second cast is 133 total health loss every 10 seconds. There are alot of variables at play but I gave the Esurge mesmer the benefit of the doubt and he still comes out on the bottom.

Fire Attunement, GoLE, and Glowing Gaze are enough for a hero to cast SF almost indefinately.

Cracked Armor is worth 25% more damage. Weakness and/or Cracked Armor has the chance to cover Burning or vice versa, if the foe starts removing conditions.

50% DAS and Weakness can go a long way vs HM physical attackers. Although, the current meta dictates offense > defense. And blind is even better, so thats debatable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No it isn't. SYG doesn't do all that much. Fall Back is ok, but not really worth a paragon.

SYG gives +24 AR. Which is worth almost 30% damage reduction. In a full party of casters the effects are the most exaggerated. But, I do agree the Paragon and Curser in that build are the odd men out, and the original build is overly defensive.

Edit:@Kaida I

'd ya by 1 min, but thank you for re-emphasizing a point thats hard to see unless you break it down. I compared just SF to ESurge and got 13.3 and 9 DPS respectively Vs a lvl 26 Ranger. You wont notice it if you only watch the numbers on the screen. And yes Mistrust can go on the Esurge. But, its sooo conditional its almost impossible to calculate.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 25, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I'll stand by Searing Flames. I've used it with good success in the past, often where an ESurge has been lackluster.

Even mathematically, the SF is comparable:

Elementalist:
Searing Flames:
I'll lowball it and say 50 Damage per cast @ 14 spec in Hard Mode (can't get on GW atm to test). We'll also say it gets cast every 4 seconds (with a 1 second cast time included). This is 12.5 DPS per target.
It does an additional 14 DPS per target in burning each second.
(I understand that a cast is required to ignite and a cast is required to damage, however I am not a math wiz. For simplicity sake we're going to ignore that. I gave the Mesmer a huge advantage below to compensate.)
Searing Flames: ~26.5 DPS per target.

Energy Surge:
72 Damage per cast (we're assuming target always has full energy, which is usually the case) @ 14 spec. It gets cast every 11 seconds (immediately upon recharge, which has been reduced by a whopping 33%, which usually isn't run). 6.5 DPS per target.
Mistrust:
I added this because it'd be foolish not to run it on a Dom! It's 128 Damage @ 14 spec, cast every 9 seconds (same 33% reduction, immediately upon recharge), for a powerful 14.2 DPS per target.
Mesmer: ~20.7 DPS

Even if the Searing Flames hit for 30 damage per cast, it would still have 21.5 DPS, beating out a Mesmer @ 12 Fast cast using 14 spec Dom upon recharge.

The REAL issue is the rest of the bar. Searing Flames requires much more support to manage. Often Fire Attunement with Aura of Restoration (cover) and Glyph of Lesser Energy. Glowing Gaze is often added as well, however the DPS from that skill (since it isn't AoE) is minimal in the case of this comparison. The Mesmer Bar is a little less intensive, leaving a few more options for Utility or Damage (or even Healing in some cases).

I have often run an E/Me SF with skills like Cry of Frustration, Leech Signet, and Power Drain. Combined with Fire Attunement, Glyph, and AoR, I have an extra slot for Damage. I prefer, as odd as it seems, Lava Font. I must say that I mostly ran this build with a MM and a copy of Weaken Armor, adding to DPS while keeping the Ele, who runs into Melee range, safe from Aggro through minions.

Elementalist:
Pros:
Does more damage over time.
This damage can be increased via Weaken Armor.
Will output DPS much longer in an extended fight (arguable).

Cons:
Takes a huge amount of the bar to manage energy (less versatile).
More susceptible to interruption/shutdown.

Mesmer:
Pros:
Does more damage up front (spikey- good in PvE).
Bar is much more versatile without Searing Flames.

Cons:
May not last as long in an extended fight (arguable).
Less damage overall.
Somewhat dependent on Enemies to activate damage (PvE, derp, who cares?)

Does this mean the Ele is better? Certainly not. I do think/feel Searing Flames catches some bad rep and is often misrepresented though.

Xenomortis · Jan 25, 2011, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I gotta pull the math card on this one. Say the ESurge has 12 in fast casting and 15 in domination, dealing 90 damage every 10 seconds.

...

That's all very nice - but the Dom Mesmer is still going to pull his weight more than the SF guy. Just because the degen from SF stacks up to do something doesn't mean the build utilising it is better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

Fire Attunement, GoLE, and Glowing Gaze are enough for a hero to cast SF almost indefinately.

And really, that's all he does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

SYG gives +24 AR. Which is worth almost 30% damage reduction. In a full party of casters the effects are the most exaggerated.

Yes, but there's a problem; the armour boost is conditional. The only time my heroes and henchmen regularly stand still (and in earshot of each other) is when they're caught in Meteor Shower or they're not flagged apart or not running around because they're not taking damage.
And of course the damage reduction is only applicable to armour sensitive sources. The net effect is reduced pressure against auto-attack damage (Aegis is better and sufficient) and Elementalists spamming things that aren't big spikes.
That said, armour boosts are far from worthless, but SYG just doesn't pull its weight to merit bringing a Paragon and it is far from a must in H/H caster balls.

Dzjudz · Jan 25, 2011, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Searing Flames just doesn't do anything. It's also a fairly large energy burden.
The ESurge guy would do a bit more, but Panic is more useful. Either way, the Curses stuff is a waste and you want Mistrust.

I'd agree with replacing Weaken Armor for example with Mistrust, but Enfeebling Blood is a great skill.

Quote:

It (Disenchantment) does damage and even more damage with SoGM and Painful Bond. It removes prots.
Shelter does neither.

SoGM is bad on a hero. I see a lot of these rit hero builds with SoGM and 4 or 5 spirits. Have you seen heroes use these builds? They put up one spirit, use SoGM (wasting it), put up the other spirits and are out of energy and don't have any other useful skills. Because of the lack of summon spirits (and brains to know how to use armor of unfeeling) their spirits die quickly. The result is a useless hero with no energy and with 45 sec recharge communing spirits.

At least an ST rit can replace dead spirits immediately.

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No it isn't. SYG doesn't do all that much.

34% dmg decrease not much? Keep in mind most professions won't / can't run Save Yourselves.

Quote:

Fall Back is ok, but not really worth a paragon.

Well I'm used to vanquishing with 2 copies of fall back. Without them, it is a lot slower, really. And they keep minions alive between battles.

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That's a lot of redundancy. You also missed Panic in your list.
Yesterday I H/Hed two of the dungeons in Slaver's Exile on my Assassin in Hard Mode (Forgewight and Thommis(+Rand)) and I ran less pure defense than you. I had Save Yourselves, a Panic hero, an ER Hero and Mhenlo. My SoS Rit also has MBAS.

How is mine redundant, you were essentially running exactly the same defense.
- ER Prot: check
- Resto without elite: Mhenlo instead
- Shelter and Stand Your Ground: SY instead
- Panic hero: check
The difference is that the Resto has some offense and Mhenlo doesn't. Where is that 'a lot of redundancy'?

Quote:

Yes, but that doesn't mean you have to run crap. It's worth knowing what you can cut and why.

I'd say the same to a SoGM build tbh.

I will admit the para build will need to prove itself in the future, but in theory it performs on par if not better than a smite hero and is in no way 'crap'.

Xenomortis · Jan 25, 2011, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

How is mine redundant, you were essentially running exactly the same defense.
- ER Prot: check
- Resto without elite: Mhenlo instead
- Shelter and Stand Your Ground: SY instead
- Panic hero: check
The difference is that the Resto has some offense and Mhenlo doesn't. Where is that 'a lot of redundancy'?

You ran a Soul Twisting rit with defensive spirits - the ER guy essentially does nothing with him around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

SoGM is bad on a hero. I see a lot of these rit hero builds with SoGM and 4 or 5 spirits. Have you seen heroes use these builds? They put up one spirit, use SoGM (wasting it), put up the other spirits and are out of energy and don't have any other useful skills. Because of the lack of summon spirits (and brains to know how to use armor of unfeeling) their spirits die quickly. The result is a useless hero with no energy and with 45 sec recharge communing spirits.

I'll say this;
A good while ago I used to H/H on my casters with only the one Rit hero (SoS Channeling+Rest) and ran a variety of options in the third slot over the SoGM Rit (Smites, ERs, other offensive builds). Switching to the SOGM Rit not only increased stability, it increased speed significantly.
Of course, vanquishing isn't something I've done for a little while on a large scale (got bored halfway through my Tyria VQ after having done everything else) where you can just charge from one mob to the next without having to worry about anything. Even then though, by the time you're at the next encounter most of your spirit should be recharged and if not, it's not as though it matters.
Against anything actually difficult, the Rit carries his weight much more than anything else I would slot in as a caster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

34% dmg decrease not much? Keep in mind most professions won't / can't run Save Yourselves.

It's a damage reduction that's not as important or significant as the other things I bring. I can't justify SYG over those and with your 7 hero setup, it's totally redundant.

Dzjudz · Jan 25, 2011, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You ran a Soul Twisting rit with defensive spirits - the ER guy essentially does nothing with him around.

Shelter, Dissonance and Anguish hardly qualifies as a full defensive bar but alright. I compared Shelter and SYG to SY as you could have seen.

Xenomortis · Jan 25, 2011, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzjudz

Shelter, Dissonance and Anguish hardly qualifies as a full defensive bar but alright.

He has Shelter, Displacement and Dulled Weapon. His one attack spirit is Dissonance and that's an interrupter.

Dzjudz · Jan 25, 2011, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Today is a new day and it's time for a fresh start

.

In this post, I hope to implement most if not all criticisms from the last few pages in one build that can please any profession.

It has 5 basic heroes and 2 optional slots, depending first on the professsion of the player and secondly on that player's preferences.

The basic team is this:

The Curses necro is removed altogether with the two most important curses spells tacked onto the Aura of the Lich necro. The conclusion is that Spiteful Spirit alone is not worth slotting a hero for.

The first of the two optional slots is the Signet of Spirits ritualist. There are generally four possibilities of implementing this hero, depending on the role of the player character: melee, ranged, caster or spirit spammer himself.

As you can see the hero has a few optional slots when the player is a caster. You can fill these in to your liking (smite, command, restoration etc).

The bar is empty when the player is a spirit spammer himself, obviously. This means that instead of 1 extra optional hero, a spirit spammer can pick 2 optional heroes.

These are a few example of bars that can run in the last optional bar (pick 2 if you are a spirit spammer):

There are of course more possibilities. I'd personally go for the ESurge hero. This gives you both Wastrel's (both on the same mesmer = 0 energy), plenty of shutdown and considerable armor ignoring damage. I know there are people who like SoGM heroes, so I included a SoGM bar as well. If you pick this, be sure to slot Painful Bond on the SoS hero in optional 1 (or on yourself if you are a spirit spammer). The Blood bar is just something I threw together to give a few optional bars, probably not worth it if you are the only physical attacker in the team.

Here are a couple of examples of finished teams using the 5 basic bars and the two optional slots:

I replaced the res on the IV Resto in the last one with Life so the hero doesn't waste time ressing if someone dies, since there is an additional res on the other ritualist in this case.

I hope these bars are more to your liking. They're pretty much full of armor ignoring damage and shutdown and less focused on defensive measures than previous builds.

The player can run anything he likes, from Hammer Warrior to Echo SS Necro.

satanail · Jan 26, 2011, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Has anyone used the synergy between ER Orders and ER Protection? Basically something like Racway + Hero Spiritway + ER Prot + Human physical... Might be dangerous against Mirror of Enchantment or Chilblains though, but you would still have the paragons.

NerfHerder · Jan 26, 2011, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I have been working on a Dual ER backline for my physicals. So far it looks something like this...

I made it for my Melee characters, until Melee AI improves I would use two spear chuckers. If your going racway with an Imba, ER prot might be overly defensive. With the addition of Thackery, I have been theorycrafting this build..

I'm still working on both of them, its hard to find an IAS for the Ranger w/o taking a pet.

EDIT: I'll probably work Splinter Weapon in instead of the Ranger

Xenomortis · Jan 26, 2011, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by satanail

Has anyone used the synergy between ER Orders and ER Protection? Basically something like Racway + Hero Spiritway + ER Prot + Human physical... Might be dangerous against Mirror of Enchantment or Chilblains though, but you would still have the paragons.

A Nec has a more powerful Orders and isn't locked into a secondary.
In the end, the energy boost and not too well timed health boosts don't outweigh power and utility options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

EDIT: I'll probably work Splinter Weapon in instead of the Ranger

For example, a Necromancer could take that and Orders.

Although I'd say the SF Ele was due for replacement if you wanted Splinter.

DigitalFear · Jan 26, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Meh... I should probably add a res or two and make the n/p and monk suck less.